Rob Bell Responds: an interview with martin bashir
About a week ago I dove into the controversy surrounding Rob Bell and his new book, Love Wins. The point that I made and still very much stand by is that it is important to have all of the facts before making judgements about whether or not Rob Bell has strayed from true, Bible based Christian theology. The promo video for the book seems to indicate that he is veering into dangerous waters in terms of some of his beliefs but it is not 100% clear. For this reason I said that I think it is important to gather more facts ie. read the book, before making the type of harsh statements that have been made by many individuals.
Well Rob Bell helped us all out by subjecting himself to the questions of MSNBC’s Martin Bashir. Below is the interview and unfortunately it seems to confirm many of the concerns about his theological positions. While I still plan on reading the book for myself, hearing Rob attempt to answer direct questions about his beliefs leaves me disappointed…I had hoped that his answers would be different.
Watch the video and post your thoughts about Rob Bell’s responses.
Posted on March 15th, 2011 by David | 40 Comments »
Wow… that was painful. Thanks for the post, Dave. Good to see someone ask the questions we all want to ask. Painful to hear his response, though, for sure.
It really is. I was cautiously optimistic that the book wouldn’t be as extreme as it sounded in his promo video, but I fear it’s just as bad as it sounds.
The Truth always surfaces a persons resistance to it. By proxy, Bashir brings simple truths by way of traditionaly understood questions.
Bell’s resistance shows his true color; that is, evaiseness towards truth. But that’s what many emergents do. That is, question what has been centuries known as true – Just like the surpent in the garden, not accept, but question truth, and shed new “light” on truth.
Remember,.John 8:38 says, “…the truth will set you free.”
Derek, I appreciate you jumping into the conversation. I agree that Bell’s answers were vague and that was a concern for me as well.
Wow. I kind of like Martin Bashir and wish he wrote a book. Or did he already?
Rob Bell pulled a Sarah Palin and didn’t really answer the questions well.
You’re right K.C., Bell did a really poor job of answering the questions and what he did say left me more concerned than before.
Unfortunately, it does not present Rob Bell in the best light – but I think he was evasive on the questions asked. I have not read his book – but I can tell he wrestles with traditional values like some of us do that were brought up believing certain doctrine. I have found myself struggling with things like divorce and drinking alcohol, for example – simply wasn’t raised believing that either one of these things was okay. But I have changed my mind on both of these issues – and do not think divorce and remarriage is the unpardonable sin. So there are some gray areas that each of us has to come to grips with on our own – studying scripture for ourselves and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us and not man made rules of conduct. It does raise some interesting questions and in our small group last night – we had a very lively discussion!
I agree Cindy, there are definitely some gray areas that we just don’t have all the answers to. My concern with Bell is that some of the areas that he is challenging in my opinion are more black and white. That’s not to say that there isn’t any room for discussion, because I think talking through issues of faith is a good thing. However, I’m not quite in alignment with the direction he seems to be heading.
Yes – that’s what our discussion included last night for sure – especially the ‘no hell’ thing – what’s up with that?
Thanks for the post David.
I too have wondered about Bell. A few years back I even used his Nooma videos to spark discussion in groups I lead. But they always seemed to lack “teeth”. The more I look into his stuff I feel like the question Martin asked him was perfect; “are you just watering down the Gospel to make it more accessible to our culture?” (paraphrased). I feel like that’s what he does, and although we should deliver that message in a way that is relevant to our culture, the message must remain intact. A watered-down softened message will make people feel welcome and validated, but Truth will transform.
Hey Ed, thanks for jumping into the conversation. I too have used Nooma videos for small groups and such. In general I liked a good number of them but I can see what you’re saying about some of them lacking “teeth.” My biggest concern is not so much that Rob is watering the Gospel down (although I think he is doing that) but that he has watered it down so far that it no longer ressembles the Gospel. I think there are plenty of pastor that water it down and beat around the bush avoiding tough topics, etc. but they still stick to the Gospel. Rob seems to water it down so much that what he is teaching no longer actually lines up with the Bible and that doesn’t agree with me.
If you can’t answer the question, “Is it relevant, how you respond to Christ in this life?” with a straightforward, simple “Yes,” Then you have no business being a pastor or calling yourself an orthodox Christian.
All he can do is dissemble and muddy the waters with anecdotalism. For this reason, I think it’s fully appropriate the harsh statements that have been directed at him. He’s a cowardly, self-indulgent heretic. He needs to repent and come to the Jesus of the Bible.
I agree with you Eric. As a minister of the Gospel, you must be able to answer that question with a simple “yes.” That is foundational to to Christian theology.
I also agree that the criticism he is facing seems to be justified. When I initially watched the promo video for the book I had plenty of critical thoughts. I just wanted to make sure that what he seemed to be communicating in the video was in fact the message he was sharing in the book. After this interview it sure appears to be the case. That’s incredibly sad.
It would appear that Satan’s hate is much more powerful than God’s love considering the vast majority of humans will choose to go to hell.
ADR, Thanks for the comment. In my opinion the most important part of what you said is that “humans will choose.” Ultimately we have the choice of who to follow. God has given us the ability to choose to follow Him or fall away from him. Many chose not to follow God because Satan is deceitful and a liar and he appeals to our sinful nature. God on the other hand does not use deception or tricks to get us to follow Him. He extends love and grace to us. That’s it. God doesn’t play games, He doesn’t tempt us. He says here I am, ready and willing to provide you with eternal love and grace.
Unfortunately we live in a world that is full of many other tempting things that compete for our devotion and Satan uses those things to get us to settle for less than God’s love.
It’s not that Satan’s hate is more powerful than God’s love, it’s that Satan is deceptive and God is not. God is not in the business of coercion, He wants us to freely come to Him.
David,
Doesn’t it seem just a strange to you that in terms of pure numbers Satan absolutely wins the game of the number of souls in heaven or hell, no matter how deceptive he is? Since God knows everything from beginning to end, and He knows that 90% (or some large percentage) of people will be forever tortured, why would he continue to allow Satan to keep deceiving people into hell? I mean we are talking about God here — the Creator of everything!
One other question: Would you allow people in prison today (pedophiles, murderers, drug users, tax cheats, etc.) to be tortured by the prison warden and prison guards as they see fit since they were found guilty in a court of law by the people?
Hi ADR,
The “game” is not over and neither you nor I can predict how things will turnout in the future in terms of who is going to follow God and who is not. Does the fact that we can choose not follow allow for people to spend eternity in hell? Yes. but the choice is ours. God gave us free will so that we can experience God’s love. If we were programmed to follow God there would be no need for love. But God created us to loved Him and be loved by Him. Do I understand all of the ins and outs of how it all works, most definitely not. Can I answer exactly why bad things happen no, but I do believe that God is good.
In regards to your other question, I’m not a fan of torture.
David,
I suppose that if you were to ask the average Christian most would say that a majority of humans will go to hell. “Narrow is the path”.
As far as free choice, don’t you find it strange that a lot people would choose to be tortured in hell forever and a smaller minority not? Doesn’t seem like a very informed decision to me.
If you’re not a fan of torture (or torment) I must ask you what you think hell is? The Bible indicates it is torment forever and ever. Most Christians believe you are literally burning forever along with Satan — and they deserve this torment/torture. If God allows this to happen (He is God, so he does allow for it since he is in absolute control) then why is it wrong to torture or torment prisoners in jail now for the things they have done?
Hi ADR,
I’m definitely not saying that it’s easy or that everyone will go to heaven because you’re right, it is made very clear in the Bible that many won’t. With that being said, neither one of us know just how many will got to heaven or hell.
In regards to whether or not I think it’s strange that a lot of people would choose to be tortured in hell forever, I don’t think that’s how people see it. I don’t think anyone would choose to be tortured forever but if don’t believe in God it’s pretty easy to see how people can get caught up in everything else the world has to offer. I also don’t think that Christians (myself included at times) do a very good job of truly conveying what it means to have a relationship with Christ and to live your life for Him. This might be part of what plays into people making less informed decisions.
When It comes to hell I definitely believe it’s a torturous place. What exactly it looks like, I don’t know. However, that is God’s judgement not mine. I do my best to love God and love people.
David,
If you believe hell is torturous for all eternity, does the crime fit the punishment? That is, does the finite sin of someone’s life on earth justify the infinite torture of hell?
As far as God’s judgment to a tortuous hell: If you think it is wrong to allow prison guards to torture prisoners, why do you seem to look the other way when God will allow Satan to torture humans in hell — for all eternity?
Hi ADR,
As you said before God is the creator of everything and so only He is able to judge whether or not the punishment is fitting. And while God deems it to be fitting He doesn’t say you have to go their if you have sinned. He has given another option and that is a loving relationship with Him. He made a way for all of us, we just have to choose if which path we would rather take.
God doesn’t just throw people into hell. There is another option as I mentioned above. People have the choice to completely avoid that punishment, that’s the incredible thing. We don’t have to endure that. We can invite God to come into our lives, take our sin away and we get to spend eternity in paradise. The choice is ours.
David,
Respectfully, you seem to be avoiding the question kind of like Rob Bell was.
Anyway, as far as choice: How exactly could someone who never heard the Gospel (for example, a North American Indian living in 1000 AD) invite God into their lives and accept Jesus to avoid hell?
One of the more disturbing things about this book is not just what Rob Bell says, but that it represents a way of thinking that is being embraced by a large segment of the church. The truth of the Gospel is being watered down, under the guise of making it more inclusive to everyone. By erasing the hard lines of truth and blurring the certainties taught in Scripture, more people will feel comfortable coming into the church. The problem is, they are not being taught Scriptural truth. If you are going to read Pastor Bell’s book, I’d suggest also reading John MacArthur’s book, “The Truth War.” Not an easy read, but very sound and enlightening.
Speaking of “hard lines of truth”: How exactly could someone who never heard the Gospel (for example, a North American Indian living in 1000 AD) invite God into their lives and accept Jesus to avoid hell?
Hi ADR,
I’m not exactly sure why I can’t respond to your post above, perhaps that is the max number of posts per thread. In any event to answer your question further since I wasn’t as complete with my answer is necessary for your question. You asked why I am against torture but I “turn the other way” when it comes to God allowing people to tortured in hell.
As I said before, God doesn’t just throw people into hell. People have the choice to completely avoid that punishment. We can invite God to come into our lives, take our sin away and we get to spend eternity in paradise. The choice is ours. But the other part of this is that I don’t have any say in the matter. To me God allowing people who do not come to a relationship with Him go to hell is like gravity. It simply is a truth. It’s not a social policy or an item on a ballot that I can vote for or against. So I really can’t turn the other way to that any more than I can to gravity. They both are reality to me.
In regards to your other question that you asked me and also posted above, let me start by saying that that’s a tough question and I don’t completely understand how it all works. WIth that being said, I believe that God can and does use what to many of use would be unconventional means to awaken us to His truth. There have been many examples of this throughout history. Two from the Bible are that of Abraham who God spoke to directly and Pharaoh who had dreams of God. If God was creative enough to create all of creation He is creative and competent enough to make himself known to other people groups through any number of means. Do know what all of those ways are and do I completely understand how that all works? As I said before, no I don’t. But I believe that God can make himself known to anyone and everyone who seeks to know the truth.
David,
Compare what you said here:
“…We can invite God to come into our lives, take our sin away and we get to spend eternity in paradise…”
To what you then said here:
“…I don’t completely understand how it all works…”;
“…He is creative and competent enough to make himself known to other people groups through any number of means…”
With those statements (particularly the last one) I think you may have more in common with what Mr. Bell is trying to say in his book than you may realize (or possibly want to admit).
Hi ADR,
I 100% believe that you have to ask God to come into your life in order to go to Heaven. Rob Bell doesn’t seem to believe that. But with that being said, I’m not sure how God reveals himself to everyone, but I believe that He can.
I’m not saying that Rob Bell has to have everything figured out, but I do believe that when it comes to heaven and hell God makes it pretty clear who’s going where and that’s where Rob and I seem to disagree based on his videos.
As I said really appreciate you taking the time to dialogue but I’m guessing that we’re probably not going to see eye to eye on this issue and that’s okay. You, Rob and myself are all on journeys to figure this stuff out and that means we’re going to disagree on issues. However, I value the fact that you have been willing to share you opinion with me and my readers.
Martin Bashir asks Rob Bell (paraphrasing): “God is all powerful but doesn’t care about the people of Japan. Or, God does care about the people of Japan but isn’t all powerful. Which one is it?”
What kind of a question is that? Mr. Bell should have said neither one is correct (which he did in a round about way). Yet, many here seemed to have really enjoyed Mr. Bashir and his questioning because they don’t appreciate what Bell is saying. I think that first question may say a lot more about Bashir than it does Bell.
Hi ADR,
You make a really great point about Bashir’s first question and Bell’s response. I am in total agreement that Rob Bell should have said neither. The truth is God is both all powerful and loving. Again this gets into the conversation of why would a good God allow something like this to happen to people He loves and as I said before I don’t exactly know why. But I believe that in the midst of tragedy God is there and as it says in Romans 8:28 “And we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.” I trust this to be true and believe that God is still at work and is as powerful and loving as ever.
The biggest challenge for us is that we can only see such a finite amount of the picture, whereas God sees it all. I wish I had a better understanding, but my perspective is limited and that is truly where faith comes into play.
In regards to the questions Bashir asked, I think many people liked them because they were very straightforward and addressed many of the concerns that people have about Bell’s book. In any event, Bashir’s questions are neither here nor there. What people are really concerned about is whether or not Bell’s book is true to the Gospel.
When it comes to such eternal questions, our knowledge is limited and I simply try and stick to what the Bible says. Does that mean I still have questions sure. Does that make it hard to believe in certain things at times, absolutely. But that’s where faith comes into play.
ADR, I don’t know if my responses have helped answer your questions or not but I appreciate you reading the blog and engaging in the conversation.
Not to keep harping on this, but after watching the interview I really don’t think Bell did that bad of a job, especially considering it was definitely a very hard and seemingly very biased interview (I’m surprised this was MSNBC of all places). I have no problems with hard interviews. Here is a summation of the interview with comments from someone else that I feel is accurate (you can find it here:http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2011/03/rob_bell_book_reviews_roll_in.html):
“…Not at all. When does the interviewer give him any sort of fair opportunity to answer a question in whole? Examine the reality:
About two mins in Bell is asked “Are you a universalist who believes that everybody can go to Heaven regardless of how they respond to Christ on Earth?” Bell responds that he is not a universalist and begins to define what he believes. The interviewer interrupts saying “I get that. So is it irrelevant or is it immaterial about how one responds to Christ in terms of determining one’s eternal destiny?” Bell answers “I think it’s extraordinarily important” The interviewer doesn’t listen, accuses Bell of wanting to have it both ways and repeats his question. Again Bell says that it’s “terribly important” what one does and believes in this life and then cautions against creating whole dogmas off of speculation. Again Bell is interrupted and he is accused of being the one talking about speculation. Here the interviewer is missing the point. Bell isn’t saying have no beliefs about the afterlife. His caution is to not create dogmas about the afterlife, which is purely speculative, and sentencing people to eternal damnation as if they have the power to do so. Bell gets cut off though before he can finish his thoughts. Again, the interviewer re-asks the same question for the third time. For a third time Bell responds that it is important what you believe and do in this life. I think the interviewer finally heard the words that he was saying because he moves on to accusing Bell’s book of being inaccurate and indefensible. The question he then raises is “that’s true isn’t it?” In what way is this an interview and not Bell being put on trial? He doesn’t ask for Bell’s response, he asks for Bell’s admission of guilt. Bell’s response is simple “No, it’s not true.” The follow up is unrelated to much of anything. He asks about why Bell chooses one thing over another and Bell says that he does it to allow people to see that they are not the only people to wrestle with some issues, that theologians have had the same questions since the start. Our interviewer comes back with how it seems Bell is creating a Christian gospel that is warm and popular for our contemporary culture “but is frankly unbiblical and historically unreliable. That’s true isn’t it?” Again, no evidence is shown, but the same critic is quoted and the same question, which Bell already answered, is asked. The interviewer takes the side of one of another. Instead of following up with “why isn’t it true then?” he doesn’t give Bell the ability to explain, he doesn’t want Bell to explain because then his opinion could be wrong. And instead of even letting Bell say that it’s not true he interrupts again and says that “you’re amending the gospel” to make it easier to swallow “that’s what you’ve done haven’t you?” Again accusatory questions. Bell again says “it’s not true, there’s actually an entire chapter in the book on Hell and throughout the book, over and over again, our choices matter.” Finally the interviewer tries to attack Bell’s past as being psychologically scarring and that’s why Bell wrote the book. Bell responds, rather correctly, that yes, he was shaped by his past, his past had to lead to his present and it’s his wrestling with what he was raised in that brought him to this point just like how everybody else wrestles with their history to bring them to where they are.
Bell never dances around the issues here. He is constantly cut off from answering, and put on trial. My favorite part is Bell being accused of making an easy to swallow version of Christianity when so many people are outraged at his “easy to swallow version”. It clearly isn’t easy for all to swallow. Like the older son in the parable that Jesus tells of the prodigal son, there are those that don’t like Bell’s theology because in the end everyone will be in Heaven. Even though Bell says Hell will be experienced by people he says that it will end, that they will be welcomed back by the Father. And those, like our interviewer, that think they shouldn’t be allowed home are upset at that idea. God welcomes all his children back. Those that believe now and do good now enjoy God’s love and spiritual treasures now and forever. There is reward for following Jesus in this life. It’s basking in God’s love, and for some, it seems like that isn’t enough…”
Hi ADR,
As I said before, it seems quite clear that we are not going to agree on this issue. In my opinion, based on the promo video for Bell’s book and the interview with Martin Bashir, there are concerns about Bell’s theology. Do I think he’s a bad guy? No. Do I disagree with everything he says and/or believes? No. However, there are areas where we do not see eye to eye. But with all of that being said it has been my goal to gain as much information about this topic as possible; that’s why I initially posted about Bell’s book.
Again as I have said a couple times I really do appreciate your thoughts and passion regarding this issue, however we are definitely harping on the same issue now so I think it’s best to wrap this dialogue up. We seem to have reached the place where we need to agree to disagree.
You have provided a lot great thoughts and I thank you for that.
David,
No problem. I thought others might want to weigh in, too. I will discontinue posting on this particular post.
Hey David~
I confess I haven’t watched the promo video, so I can’t speak about that intelligibly. I did however watch your link to this interview. While I think that it would have been helpful for Bell to answer with more clarity, I’m not sure that the interviewers questions were fair. For example, I would have liked him to support his accusation of Bell being “unbiblical & historically inaccurate” with some examples. A broad statement like that is difficult to respond to well, no matter whether there is truth to it or not. Also, I feel like Bashir wasn’t interested in allowing nuance when it came to Bell’s answers.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe that the Gospel should be watered down. God’s story is Love and redemption and rebirth. But it is also consequence and hard choices and suffering sometimes. I am more than a little worried that another “big name” in American Christianity may go down in flames. But I am equally worried that people are coming into the whole thing without really being willing to listen.
Overall, I like you, will have to read the book in order to make any kind of reasonable conclusion. Thanks for putting this out there for conversation.
Hi Sarah,
Martin Bashir’s line of questioning came from many of the concerns that people have voiced about Rob Bell’s new book as a result of his promo video (at the bottom of my comment is a link to my original post about this topic with the video included). Rob makes some pretty interesting statements and it started a firestorm of criticism, which is why I posted in the first place. I said that people need to read the book before making such harsh accusations. However, the interview with Bashir seems to support many of the concerns that people have voiced. In any event, I plan on reading the book but I tend to think that it’s going to reflect the concerns that people have presented.
http://davidnmiles.com/2011/03/07/the-controversial-mr-bell/
Hey David
found these two articles, thought they were pretty interesting. I want to read the book before I make conclusions, but very much agree that the water seems to be pretty murky. http://carm.org/can-christian-be-universalist, http://www.revelife.com/742964671/is-universalism-heresy/
Thought provoking discussion.
ADR,
Thanks for adding to the dialogue and I appreciate your willingness to keep it civil. that doesn’t always happen in forums like this.
If you don’t mind me asking (if you do feel free not to respond), what’s your background and how did you come upon my humble little blog? I only know you as three initials and would love to know more about who I’ve been having this great conversation with.
David,
Send me your email address to the one tagged in this reply and I’d be happy to talk to you.
interview with martin bashir post bell interview.
http://networkedblogs.com/fxXwm
I have read Rob Bell’s book. I have also read many other books from other well respected theologians, pastors, bishops, etc. I agree with Rob Bell that we are all on a journey, and I believe that Jesus will use whatever means to draw His people back to Him. I have feared God for many years, so much so I would never have been one to share the gospel message with anyone. What’s the good news about hell? And the only reason I had a relationship with God was because I was too afraid not to. This book has allowed me see God for the loving, caring all-powerful God he is. I want to be in a relationship with this God. And I want to share the message of God’s love and compassion for all people. Ultimately no matter what theories we use to support our arguments against one another, isn’t at the end of the day about bringing people to Jesus. Rob Bell has done that for me.